How can we foster trust while working remotely?
As organizations deal with the shift to remote and hybrid working, mass resignations, layoffs, quiet quitting, and more, building trust in the workplace becomes even more important and all the more challenging.
Watch this live event with Notion's Gabby Hoyos, with a Masters in Organizational Psychology, or read through the main points from the webinar in this article to learn about earning trust and building solid work relationships, even in a remote work setup.
Janine Ramirez: Hello everyone and welcome to Erudit Shockwave Talks. My name is Janine Ramirez and I work on content for aerody and help explain our survey free AI powered people analytics tool that empowers better understanding of your workforce for better decisions. So at Aite, we love, love, love learning, and this webinar series called Shockwave Talks is our way of learning and sharing all these insights with more people. So thank you so much for being here and for joining us today to learn about trust building in organizations and particularly for remote teams. Okay, so before I introduce our guests and our speaker, just some reminders. One time is precious, so we'll keep everything within an R. Please make sure to use the chat to ask any questions and share your experiences any time. So use the chat type whatever you want over there, and I will read out your questions when we pause for, for every topic.
Janine Ramirez: Lastly, this is being recorded, so I hope like I, I look okay for the camera and we'll be sending you the link to the video afterwards if you registered. So please register even if you register late so that you get the email. Also, please free to share it right now, share it to your feed so we get more people in and we have more questions and more insights as well. Okay. And oh yeah, throughout this talk please feel free to invite colleagues and join in in the conversation. The more the merrier I just said. Great. Okay, so let's get to it. Time to welcome our resource speaker. So all of us at Aite are so excited and thankful to have with us an essential member of NOTIONS recruiting team, working on a global employer, branding, recruiting and operations. Gabby Hoyos. Hey, Gabby is a people enthusiast with a background in organizational psychology. She's worked in various industries from nonprofit to tech in the US and internationally. So thank you. Thank you so much Gabby, for lending us your time today. We're so excited to hear your insights and stories. So before I give you the floor, I just wanna ask like, what should we expect from your Shockwave Talk today?
Gabby Hoyos: Well, hi for having me. Can you guys, can you hear me well?
Janine Ramirez: Yes, yes, I can hear you well.
Gabby Hoyos: Awesome. I think what you can expect from the conversation today is that, you know, trust requires both the employer and the employee. So it's not something to have a ton of pressure about, but it, it's, you know, it takes two, takes two. So you're, we're gonna dive into that a little bit more. Great.
Janine Ramirez: It's, it's a relationship, right? It's almost like a romantic relationship in a way that you have to build trust, like with, with the two sides working on it. Great. Okay. That's awesome. Can't wait. So yeah, we shall start your talk now and I'll be moving your slides for you. So just let me know if you need me to move forward or back or whatever. Here we go. Okay.
Gabby Hoyos: Hi everybody. My name, like Janine said, my name is Gabby, I am from Florida. I, a little bit of me in terms of background. I have worked in a variety of different industries, starting from nonprofit, build my way up to like HR software, then back to nonprofit philanthropy and then now I'm fully in tech software development at Notion. And it's been, it's been a beautiful experience. So I'm really, really excited right now at Notion, I help kind of coordinate and do a lot of the operations behind our go to market function. So anything in sales, customer success, customer experience, foundational roles as well, executive coordination as well. So it's been a lot of fun and I'm excited to, to talk to you guys a little bit more, but we can move to the next slide. So I, I think when it comes to thinking about trust and before we get into what that practically looks like, I wanted to address the current situation right now.
Gabby Hoyos: So as you all know, we're in a place in time where the economy is, you know, supposedly in a recession and we're trying to figure out, you know, people are, employees are trying to figure out is this the time for me to change my career, for me to finally try that new role that I've always kind of contemplated. And so we're in this career shift and people pivoting, going from sales to Human Resources to something completely different into management or managers actually realizing I don't wanna manage and I wanna more be in more of an IC role. So there's pivoting all around and I don't think it's just in tech or like in the US or in other regions, like it's just worldwide. And so we have to understand that context and what that's brought about has also been companies having to backfill and they might have headcount for a specific amount of roles or wanting to open up more advanced roles, but they can't do that if people keep moving and transitioning and therefore that's causing the priority to be backfills, right?
Gabby Hoyos: And then we bring it back down to another layer, we're all everywhere at the same time. You know, some companies have started off fully remote, some we're like in office and then remote and then now hybrid. There's just so many different changes, right? And then now we're understanding, okay, in order to keep people in order to like find amazing talent, keep that amazing talent, what do we have to do? We have to be people first versus, you know, product heavy, which matters, but it's not always the most important thing. But yeah, we can, I don't know if you have Janine, if you have questions on this one.
Janine Ramirez: Yes. Well I'm sure you're going to touch on it maybe later on, but there's been so many changes in the past few years, like from the pandemic to moving to remote and like, I just want to know if, maybe you'll see it later, but how has that changed the, the trust building process within organizations?
Gabby Hoyos: Sure. I think it depends on the organization, but what I've seen is two things. It's either made people aware that wow, like this person can do the job without me being in the, in the room with them. And it's amazing and it's really, it's good quality work. Or you get the opposite of, I don't think I can trust this person. They're not responding to my slack. Or they said they were gonna send this an hour ago and I haven't heard anything else. So it's either, I think what it's exposed to be honest is the way that we communicate like our issues with communication. And I think it, it, I don't think it's that we don't trust each other. We just don't know how to communicate trust and that's part of it, right? So that's what I totally agree. That's what's the problem, I would say.
Janine Ramirez: Yeah, like I'm a super believer of communication and the importance of communication and I'm sure we're gonna touch on it later on, so I don't wanna jump the gun. I'll move on to the next slide
Gabby Hoyos: For you. Of course. So with that in mind, we're coming also to a place where we, we realize the problem. Like we realize what it is that is an issue and understanding we can't control always the economy. We can't control the job market. I remember back in 2020, we were going from a like basically not having any roles cuz there were so many layoffs to 2021, there are so many more jobs than there were people. And then now we're in this like sweet tension of there are jobs or we can't hire them because people keep leaving, right? So with that, what, what is it that we really need, right? We know we wanna build trust, we know we wanna keep employees, we know we wanna, we wanna keep good talent, good people. So number one is reassuring employees of the value of their work. And that breaks it down to why they're there and the reason that you chose this person for this specific role or for this specific project.
Gabby Hoyos: And again, a lot of that is shown in the interview process. Like when you're getting to know a candidate, right? Like you're getting to interview them and kind of see, hey, there's three candidates, but I really like how this person thinks or the questions they asked, right? And so that's like the first impression. But then when somebody's been at a company for such a long time, there still should be conversations about like, this is what I love about what you did in this project, or I, I really learned this about you when we work together on something. So this is something you can reassure employees of regardless of the timeline, whether it's when they first started at the company or five years later. So that's number one. Number two is creating opportunities for career development. So I think sometimes depending, and I know we have people from different companies, different company sizes, you know, we usually know the bigger the company, the better opportunities, right?
Gabby Hoyos: Like there's more of a structure to how you could grow in a role. If it's a smaller company, sometimes they don't always have the resources or they don't always have enough time to build out career development. But one of the biggest things that can change that is promoting people internally. So I'll give you an example. Like I worked once at a company where we had like a, like a customer success representative and they had done this role in other places as well, but they had done such a wonderful job in that role for the past nine months. And within a year they got to become a manager because we, they, they, they showed interest, they showed consistent effort, which provided the company proof that this person can be trusted, right? It they don't, I think it, it's depending, it depends on the role, it depends on the team.
Gabby Hoyos: It really just depends. But creating opportunities specifically with intention for internal employees to move to, to like become better, get skills in a different team in a different role. I, I worked at a company once that did side gigs, so it was very interesting. So it was, this was during the pandemic and if you had like an hour of your time free, you could sign up for a side gig, meaning you could sign up to volunteer with another team that has nothing to do with you, but you could maybe, I don't know, answer some emails for them or do something. So another team within the company, like within the same company of enough time. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah. And, and we would do it. And that's how I even learned about my passion for like people operations, recruiting. It was through that. And so I, I think not everyone can do that, but I think those are examples of ways that you can be intentional with the people and creating opportunities.
Gabby Hoyos: And then lastly, which is the hardest part is delegating, but the most important part to that is being thoughtful about it is, is saying like I had, I had one of my, one of my favorite managers entrusted me with a project that was really high level and I didn't necessarily feel confident to take it and I didn't sign up to take it, but we were having conversations about where I wanted to be, where I wanted to grow. And my manager took a risk on me and said, you know what Gabby, I think you can do it. You don't have the skills right now. You don't have all of them, but I think you can develop them with time. So I'm, I'm gonna recommend you for the project and thankfully I got approved. But I think this starts with like, the relationship you have with leaders is like, leaders can't read your mind either.
Gabby Hoyos: I think there comes a place where you have to, you also have to put yourself in a position to be delegated. And that's where the thoughtfulness comes about. I also understand that because at least, so I think I'm, I I, I thought I was a millennial, but I found out I'm actually Gen z I think a lot of our generation, we move, right? Like we're in a job for a year and then another one in a year. A lot of it people say has to do with like compensation and opportunities. But I think if you can find a place where you're, you are trusted enough to try something, you're not necessarily qualified for a hundred percent, I think people will stay there because they, the opportunities are endless, if that makes sense. So I think reassuring, creating opportunities and delegating with intention is what we really need to get to the trust aspect
Janine Ramirez: Before you, we move on to the next slide. Like, this is super interesting because like one reassuring, you're right. Like when someone has been in a company for so long, sometimes you assume that they know why they're there, but these things can change. And I was thinking maybe reassuring isn't just from like leadership or manager to, you know, the ic but the other way around as well. Like to let your your manager know that, okay, like, I appreciate this about you and so that they can improve and, and, and you know, like maintain the things that you actually think are, are, are working out for you and for the thoughtful delegation, I, I have like, I'm a millennial, but I think I'm ahead of my time in the sense I kept moving as well. And like it is so interesting how a manager's trust can actually build your own trust for your own abilities as well. Because when you're young, you're not quite sure what you do well and what you don't. Unless, I mean they're really like confident people in the world, but like I was not necessarily one of them. And like trust from managers really does like help you grow in your career and would make you stay and stick to, to the team, right?
Gabby Hoyos: Yeah. It's super important. And I think go, so going into this, I loved what you said, Janine, like sometimes as as a leader, you have to, you have to deposit like if, if it was money you have to deposit trust into a person and for them to actually believe that they have it, right? Hmm. So that's, I think that's part of mentorship and I think some of the best leaders I've ever, ever met are people that will mentor you, not just give you everything that you want and yeah, figure it out. And so leading us into the big question, what does trust really look like in the current workforce in 2022 in tech and nonprofit? I can't even touch healthcare cuz that's a whole different world. But in, in the main industries, some of the core principles, and the number one I would say is transparency.
Gabby Hoyos: Now this gets a little bit dicey because everybody has an idea of how you can, how much you can share, what you can't share. I've worked in places where you, you know, you knew everything that was gonna happen. And then I've worked in places where we found out the day before. And so there's, there's different styles. I think. However, the biggest part about transparency is that it really does start from leadership all the way to an individual contributor. The reason why is because that individual contributors, managers we're looking up, we're looking at what, what is a north star? What is the mission of this place, of what we're doing? Why are we here? And the people that set the tone are your leaders. Now transparency doesn't mean that you're gonna know every single piece of data that's that leadership knows. No, that's not necessarily it.
Gabby Hoyos: What transparency really looks like is, hey, if your employees are asking you about, like, are we gonna have layoffs in the next six months, right? That's like a real conversation is what that looks like. Is staff having a conversation, maybe an all hands meeting? I think most companies have that now. And just being honest about the financials before six months comes, like having honest check-in points now and, and just sharing, like, this is where we're at right now. We don't, we we're, this is the climate we don't have much data on, like what will happen six months, but we're not doing layoffs right now. If we have to, if we have to in a couple of weeks, couple months, we'll let you know. Like it's more so setting up the tone, setting up the tone for the conversation. So that's a real life example because that's happening right now.
Janine Ramirez: Yeah, I I had a question like about that. Like if it has to be a hundred percent transparency because you have leaders that are like trying to protect their employees as well, but it's a difficult thing to balance, right? Like how, how do you know if you're, you're protecting employees from certain information or if it's better to, to let them know about something like, like layoffs?
Gabby Hoyos: I think so a company is gonna be transparent according to their values. So if a company really values what their people like, how their people are like the wellbeing, right? And this goes outside of like benefits, like perks, like no, like you really care about your employees. I think a hundred percent transparency would look like sharing as much as you legally can. I know there's also a lot of compliant things and things we have to think about, but it's being really, i I would say it's proactive communication. If you know that in six weeks you're gonna have to start like doing some layoffs, start, start talking to your managers now start letting them know, like, and it doesn't have to be mass. Like it can, it can be simple as like start having those conversations now so that maybe you can prepare people. I know, I don't remember what company it was, but I think I was reading on LinkedIn, there was a specific company that had to do layoffs, but one of the the beautiful things they did was before they, they laid off people, they had made a list of all of the, like other companies that were hiring and maybe some direct connections and they had the severance package, they had different things that they, they had to cut money in other ways, but they use that to at least help people exit well because there wasn't anything else they could control.
Gabby Hoyos: But that's the one thing they could, is the resources. And so you may not be able to share everything, everything, but at least try to share the most important things that will impact the wellbeing of your people.
Janine Ramirez: Right? And, and I guess it goes back to trust as well. Like you have to trust your employees with, with the truth, especially if it's going to affect them big time later, right? Yes.
Gabby Hoyos: The truth always has a way to come out.
Janine Ramirez: It's true. And I'm guessing that would break the trust building process if you hide something and later on it comes out anyway, right? Yes.
Gabby Hoyos: Yeah. And I think that's what helps. I mean, I see it all the time. People that leave a company and then come back and then leave and come back and usually they come back because they, they trusted how they left, they trusted their team there. And so I think it says a lot, but breaking it down even further to number two. So yeah, at notion we, one of our values is related to feedback and I think I've loved seeing how we practice that here, but I know that other places practice it as well in different ways. But I think the most important thing is provide feedback, whether it is constructed or just encouraging, but provide feedback. People need to know how they're doing. They need to know if it's, if what they're doing is going anywhere, right? And I think the biggest thing is providing it consistently, consistently. I know I had a, a people leader who would at the end of the week just kind of evaluate how everyone was doing and basically just talk about the things we did that week and say, Hey Gabby, I really loved how you did this. Like, I'd love to chat more about that. Or hey, like maybe next week can try and focus on, on this and I'd love to hear what happened. But it was every week, every week you knew you would get either an encouragement or a constructive criticism in a kind way
Janine Ramirez: Points for improvement, right?
Gabby Hoyos: Yeah. That way you know how you can be better next week. Yeah. Or if you're not, if you're not okay, you can communicate that there in that conversation. And so you don't have to guess, like maybe I'll hear it in my next performance review cycle, you know? Yeah. And I think, I honestly do believe every people leader, every manager wants to do that, but sometimes either they don't, they don't trust themselves or they don't trust their team enough to do that. So again, and I think all of this, let's take you outside, like this takes time. I'm not saying that trust takes six months, like it takes time. Time, yeah. So we have to consider that. And like I said, the third one is, which is tied to the first one, proactive communication. Make that your standard. Like if you see an, if you even, you don't have to be in leadership to do this.
Gabby Hoyos: Like if you're an individual contributor, if you see something that was wrong or something that really impacted another team or something that was done really well, communicate that. Like, give kudos, kudos, give, give like honor to, to that person or to that team. Like at, at Notion we have a a thing where like there's like a whole Slack channel just to like honor people. And it could be anybody, it could be somebody that made a slide deck and it was really cool. Or somebody that helped with like one of our software bugs. And it's just to consistently get in that rhythm. Like people are doing really important work every day. And if we don't get in the rhythm of honoring that, communicating that, acknowledging it, then we're only gonna focus on the issues. Right? So the last thing I'll say trust looks like room for innovation.
Gabby Hoyos: And this happens a lot in startups, which is really great because people get to build and make mistakes and build and make mistakes. Yeah. And there isn't like 20,000 stakeholders or investors just yet. But I think that's not the only way to innovate though. I think there's also teams and spaces where it's simple like gathering your team and saying like, Hey, let's look at our processes, like our workflows. Anybody have any thoughts on it? Like, this was set before me. Like, would anybody wanna try something different? Like maybe we need to change, maybe we even, like within recruiting operations, we, we look at our software tools. Like is this helping us? It helped us when we were like, like year ago, is it helping us? Yeah. You know, it's just like leaving room to change and not everything has to be the same forever. It can be, but I think it's always asking and leaving room for your team to bring that up and just, yeah, making that, that in a, it's a cultural thing too, like making that part of your culture. Like, and it's tied to feedback, right?
Janine Ramirez: Like I, it was about we're connected Gabby, it was about to bring up like culture because you're mentioning Yeah. Like have a slack channel or have like a weekly check in to give feedback and that is kind of like making it a routine, make it, making it into the culture and giving people a space to do it. And it's like you in a way you have to design it, I feel, right? Yeah. Like, especially now, like there's so much to do, like you mentioned, there's so much to do. There's always so much, there's always something to do. So if you don't put that time in and you know, schedule it and make sure, okay, we're doing this that day, then even if you have these thoughts and you do appreciate your, your colleagues, you might not have the space or the reminder to actually voice it out and we go back again to like communication how important it is. So yeah. Okay. Noted. We do have a kudos channel in, in adex. Yay. Love you guys. If you're there. Yeah, they're here. So, okay.
Gabby Hoyos: When, when I think about our teams, I and I, I mean when I say our teams, I mean like when I think of the j like the basic teams that make up a company. You have finance, you have people, you have go to market engineering, just so many foundational roles, right? General business, operation roles, sales, like, there's just so many things. I think one of the biggest things I think about, and it's why I chose this topic, is like, why trust? Like why not communication, why not feedback, why not money? Like why not compensation? Right? And I think all of those things are important, but I think they have the same route. And the root is trust. So like, employees are not gonna respect a place or a team that they can't trust. And trust, like I said earlier, takes consistency and it takes time and it takes consistency and time and consistency and time. It's, it's a dance. It's truly a dance. And I think employees wanna see, regardless of the scenario, they wanna see a team, whether that's their team managers leadership or I don't know, the board of trustees, they wanna see like the people that they're looking up to or looking to the side have the same response.
Gabby Hoyos: I know right now a lot of companies did the return to office or going back to that, that like hybrid model. And not everybody is happy about that. I think we all know that. But I think really influential companies and and thoughtful companies are listening to their people and having as much flexibility as possible, right? Not everyone, mind you, I don't think building trust is gonna eliminate like critics. I think every, somebody's gonna criticize what you did and somebody's gonna criticize always. I, I heard it the other day. Somebody's like, the world is an unreliable critic. Like we are unreliable critics. We, we we're not always gonna like it. But I think what trust does it, it at least gives you respect. Somebody cannot agree with you, but still respect you and respect your, your opinion. Now, the first opportunity that employers and employees get to practice trust, like, I think of it as a first date.
Gabby Hoyos: We were talking about this earlier, like this is like a relationship, like romantic relationship. The first state is onboarding. It's this, Hey, we talked to you for like five hours. Here's your offer. Yay, you got some swag. Now you're part of this family, you're part of this, this community you're part of. These are the people you're gonna see more than anybody else. You know, and you're gonna be online or you're gonna see in the office. And I think the onboarding process is where you can really show glimpses of trust. And I mean like even with making sure that that employee has everything they need for the first day. Or one of the things that I loved when I joined, not like, I had people that weren't even on my team connecting with me that just wanted to hear my story of like, Hey, how'd you get here?
Gabby Hoyos: If there's any, do you have any questions that have nothing to do with your team? And it's just like inviting people. Like, and they do that now. Like, Hey, we have a new person on board. Like if anybody has any questions or just would wanna like connect, like do it. And it's, it's really inviting people feel less guarded, right? And if a person feels less guarded, they're more willing to trust you and to come to you for help. And what does that build Partnership and partnership is the foundation with which trust is formed. Lastly, trust involves both people. So this is kind of what I preview, preview trust involves the employer and the employee and it requires collaboration. I think that, like I said, the employee's role in this is voicing, is communicating what it is that they need, what it is that they're concerned about or what it is that they wanna grow into.
Gabby Hoyos: Right now, the employers is a direct response. It's a reactive response to the proactive communication of the employee. And it's a response that should be thoughtful and it should require like collaboration. It shouldn't say this is how it is. Like, deal with it. Yeah, it should want to listen. I think one of the biggest things that I've learned throughout my career is that you always should listen first. That is how you even know what to do. Because sometimes what happens is teams will express an issue, they'll express a concern and it says if that information went through one ear about the other, because the person was just trying to listen to give you an answer. But the most important thing is listening to like really understand, like say, okay, I don't work on this team, but let me put myself in their shoes. What, what would I want?
Gabby Hoyos: What would help me actually get this done? And so I would say I, I've seen this done in different companies, but s i, I knew a leader who had quickly transitioned from sales to recruiting. And one of the biggest things that made them an incredible leader in recruiting was the first month of their transition, all they did was do like a listening tour. Like they met coffee with every single person on the recruiting team. Wow. And we just went through a list of what we really like about the team right now, what we don't, what we like, what we don't. She did it with every single person. And it was one of the most, like, to this day, like it's somebody I truly admire because they built their time in recruiting based on the necessity of the team. Not necessarily, but based on their knowledge. It was what, what do we need right now? You know? I think we can go to the next slide cause
Janine Ramirez: We, yeah, I'm collecting questions and I'm gonna ask a little bit, but yes. Okay. Please finish your points.
Gabby Hoyos: And then the last two points I wanted to make is people will truly do their most meaningful work in a place that values it and, and calls it what it is. I think that yes, managers do this. Like they'll, you know, they'll, they'll be like, oh, you Gabby did this. Like, woohoo. Right? But I think that's not their only responsibility. I think you can do that yourself as well is like, hey team, whether it's like you're in a team meeting or you are in a meeting with your manager or in a meeting with your, your overall department, I think there are opportunities to celebrate like what it is that you found valuable. Like, hey, I changed this workflow and look, we, our emails are cleaner or I don't have this issue anymore. Like I, I, I think, you know, I think this is worth noting and I think again, this is where the employee has to also work at this is is bringing it to the forefront, putting it on the radar because if you don't find meaning in it, your company won't, it starts with the person, right?
Gabby Hoyos: And then the last thing is time. I think the biggest thing here, what what helps with time is if you have an assumption now, I mean, I'm talking to both people that are individual contributors and managers. I think for staff it's different. But if you have an assumption, if you think somebody isn't really trying in an area or, or you think, hey, I emailed this person about an idea that I had and they never answered, or they just, I just feel like they weren't engaged. Right? You, you have these assumptions. I would always say don't assume, do not doubt. Ask, ask get in the habit of asking, like if you brought up an issue to your manager and it just seemed like when you brought it up, they weren't, they weren't interested. Ask them like, Hey, I, I, I put myself out there. I i I saw an area that could change and improve, but it would seem like you didn't really care. Is that the case or is there something else that I don't know about? Is there knowledge? Is somebody else working on that and I just didn't know? You know, it, it's kind of, I think you have to become resourceful. And I think the same with managers. Like sometimes managers, you ask them a question and they don't know it. Like they have to find resources outside of themselves. But I think it comes with time and also just making sure that you don't assume and don't doubt just ask. It saves you more time later on.
Janine Ramirez: Goes back to communication, like clear communication, listening lots of very interesting points in these slides. And why, just, I go back because you mentioned onboarding. What are some like concrete examples or ways that, I mean, we'll, we'll have like people, HR professionals here, what are some concrete ways that they can incorporate, I don't know, like things into the onboarding process that will help with a trust building process in the long run?
Gabby Hoyos: I think, so I, I think a lot of companies do, like, you know, you, you set up the technology and you do all of the things for the employee, but I think something that's super important is like educating your employee about what you do and letting them connect with key members. Like if it, if it's marketing, like letting them connect with like the, the chief of marketing or the head of marketing or some manager in marketing, right? Like letting them feel like they're not just part of this one part of the company. Like they're really part of a community. One of the best onboarding experiences that I've had was the first week was all tech, all the, all the, you know, lot logistics. But then the last week, what we had two week onboarding, the last week, the, there was no work done. It was just grabbing chats with leaders in go to market, leaders in engineering.
Gabby Hoyos: I wasn't gonna work in engineering, but I connected with them anyway, leaders in sales, leaders in in recruiting and people. And crazy enough, a year later, half of the people that I never worked with that I met in these conversations, I, I got to like learn what they do for the company. They now are people that I get to work on projects with that are outside of my, of my responsibility. But I think it's just like setting up an inviting and inclusive like experience. It's really like an experience. So that's one concrete example. And then I think the second one is like also like giving really transparent information about like, this is what we're really good at. This is where like, you know, let's say the company is like, I don't know, a toilet paper company. Like we're selling this product so well and then there's also this side of the business that we're really struggling in and, but you're here to help us, like we're here to get better and we chose you to help us get there.
Janine Ramirez: It's strange, right? Like when you share something that's a li like that will make you a little more vulnerable. It helps the person trust you because it's not all, it's not perfect. Nothing is perfect. So when you actually share something that's a little bit negative, not really all fun and happy, I feel like it helps with a trust building process as well. Yeah, for sure. Right. For sure. Okay. Diego has a, has a good question here specifically for managers. I'm guessing like how do you give feedback, like negative feedback when you don't like the way someone works or it can go both ways? I mean you can also have, you have to tell your your manager as well if you know, if it's not working.
Gabby Hoyos: I, so I, I didn't get to share this before in my intro. So I actually studied psychology before I, I went into like HR people because I loved human behavior. And one of the classes that I took was family and marriage therapy. That was one of my favorite classes. But it addressed Diego's question. It was basically regarding, I'll give you an example. Like, like a marriage, right? Let's say, I don't know, a husband comes home late and the wife is really upset. This is like the fourth time and she's told him, Hey, like you're, I told you two weeks ago, why are you coming home late? What, what's happening? And it was, you know, super dry. There's a lot of tension. One of the, the things that I learned in that class was using a method that's not attacking a person's character. So for example, as a manager, if you had somebody that you're like, I don't really, I don't, I don't really like how this person is working or they're not delivering or they're not, you know, you know, being faithful in what, in their responsibilities is number one, again, don't assume like you're, you're seeing a behavior but you don't know what's what they're actually going through.
Gabby Hoyos: Don't assume that that person's just lazy or that they don't know what they're doing is more so like having concrete examples of like, hey, last week when I asked you about this thing and, and you gave it to me later, it made me, it, it gave me the impression that maybe you didn't prioritize that sooner or maybe did something come up, I'd love to understand what happened, right? Like, and, and you see the difference from actually saying, hey, so last week I sent you this and you were lazy and you sent it to me later. Right? Like, and
Janine Ramirez: Like judging the person versus their actions, right? Yes. Because you don't know what's happening behind their, their actions. Maybe they're like up to here with tasks or Yes,
Gabby Hoyos: It's, I think li literally it's, it's, it's just talking about the behavior and the action. Don't talk about the person because does
Janine Ramirez: The sandwich technique work as well?
Gabby Hoyos: I've heard, I've heard that in Europe y'all don't, don't do the sandwich technique. It's very
Janine Ramirez: No. Like I, I do the sandwich technique. I'm not,
Gabby Hoyos: I, I think, I honestly think though, whatever technique you do, I think you can't be kind, I don't think you have to be rude or mean, right? Because if the moment that you're rude and mean and attacking a person's character, that's a you thing. You don't like that person, but that's not really the issue, right? Right. Either you address your feelings or you address the actual problem. So I think it's making sure that the conversation is about the problem, not the person. And if you don't like the person, have a conversation about that. Like, hey, like I don't think we're connecting, I don't think we're partnering well in this. Maybe can you tell me about your preferred communication style or working style? Like how do you like to work if you don't know that you're gonna crash and you're gonna not like that person and it's gonna make every working experience really difficult, but I think the way to be kind is to always address the actual action, not the person. And if you have questions about the person, ask them like, Hey, are you going through a really hard time? You haven't responded to my 20 slack pings. Like where, where are you online? Like
Janine Ramirez: What these are like my next question Gabby, ah god,
Gabby Hoyos: There are people that it's just hard for them to communicate like non-confrontational. It's just, it's more difficult for some people than others. Especially when it comes to like, like bad news, right? Anything negative. So do you have any tips for non-confrontational people? Like how can they, how can they get this done?
Gabby Hoyos: I think for non-con like I'm putting, I'm, I'm thinking if you're a manager and you have a team member who you know, is non-confrontational, but there's some issues, I think one of the best ways I think tips to practice that kind of change, like changing their mind about what is, I think changing a person's mind about what confrontation looks like is really important. So for example, think about the words you use, like think about it like every company has, what is it called? Like you have, when you apply for a job, there's, there's always like a legal like, like a little like blurb at the bottom of like, you know, we'll get back to you. Or like, there's, there's always language around something related to like compliance or something legal. And I think in a similar way, we have to think about how we talk and the words that we use the language.
Gabby Hoyos: So if you're, if you're leading a person that is not confrontational it, I think it's more so in your one-on-ones or in those intimate, whenever they do open up and they are honest with you is taking advantage of those opportunities and making sure that you, you address like, hey, I want you to know if in the future there's ever an issue we have to discuss or you know, address. Like I want you to understand where I'm gonna come from. I'm gonna come from a person that really values you and sees your potential here and cares about the work that you're doing. And so I wanna make you better. So I have to talk about these things, right? Rather than saying, so whenever there's an issue, I'm gonna report you like, you know, it's yeah, different.
Janine Ramirez: Yeah, I guess like in that sense you're the manager has to kinda read their team and give a safe space to those that aren't natural. There will always be the people that just ev you know, every meeting has the question, gives their insight, da da da. Then there will be the, the quiet ones that maybe have, have great ideas and have something to share as well. So yeah. Yeah. Another question maybe connected to that is how different is the trust building process or the actions towards building trust between managers and, and employees? Cuz there's that, you know, there's that power play.
Gabby Hoyos: So I've never been a manager, but I've, I'm speaking from some of the best managers that I've ever had. I think what what seems to be different is I think a manager's actions when it comes to trust and communication and confrontation is having that in private first is if there is an issue and your name gets tagged in Slack like Gabby da da da, they're, you know, and it explodes. I think one of the things that managers do is they have to address it, right? They, they're gonna have to talk to you about it, but one of the things that you can do as an individual contributor is don't wait until they hear it from somebody else. Like you bring it up if you know there was something wrong or something that it was a mistake on your air, on your part or, or maybe you don't even know it was a mistake, but you, you just feel like, hey, I don't think that went as smoothly is bring it up like just slack.
Speaker: 1Like I've done that before. I'll Slack or I'll email be like, Hey, I, I think I messed up on this and I think you're gonna hear it from somebody else, but I, I wanna get a chance to like kind of communicate my process. Maybe you can give me some tips on what I can do better. And then you leave the room for your manager to understand where you're coming from and then your manager can be like, oh, I see where you're coming from. Okay, let's, let's, let's work through this and maybe we can bring that person that had that issue or, or we can address that project together and like, let's see what we can do different next time. Right? So I think the manager, the manager's way of building trust and talking about confrontation is reactive to the way that you open up as a contributor.
Janine Ramirez: Great, great stuff. I have more questions later, but we shall move on to your next slide because we have 12 minutes
Gabby Hoyos: Left. Perfect. Last but not least, I believe, how do we move forward? Like I said, listen to your teams and if you're an individual contributor, listen to your team. Like if you're just on one team, listen one of, so my current team, I love my team, so some of the best people to work with, we have like weekly syncs where it's just us, our manager's not on there. And sometimes it's just, you know, to connect. But sometimes we also address like, hey what's what's been going on with your side of the like, of the operation? Or like, how is engineering doing? And old ask me how's go to market? Like, and I think it's just building like interest. Like I wanna care about what my team does and I wanna care about how it's going. So if you're an individual contributor practice that if there's not one right now, like initiate that build, build, people will do happy hours or they'll do different things.
Gabby Hoyos: Like you can do that whether you're hybrid or remote. If you're a manager, whether you're hybrid or remote, like get in the habit of like working with your team and not just having meetings about what, what leadership is saying, but like what are you saying? Like where do you wanna take your team? Like talk about vision like in the next quarter, these are some projects I'm thinking about like would anybody wanna like work with me on this? Like open, open that up, right? Then be thoughtful on how you hire, I am very passionate about this. I think don't hire just to close a role that's just never gonna go well higher because you really believe this is the best person for this opportunity and this is the best time because this is what's happening. People are hiring quickly, they fill the role and then what happens?
Gabby Hoyos: That person leaves in six months and then you have to open it again. I just, I I honestly think as best as you can, like work with leadership to really convince them like, we wanna hire the best person. We don't just wanna hire just to close it cuz you're gonna have to open it again. Right? Then thirdly, be inclusive. I think as a manager what that looks like is championing your people, giving them opportunities, putting suggesting, like I said earlier is projects being on the lookout and if there's not a project, create one as best as you can. Like if, if, if you're going through data analytics and one of your team members said, yeah, I, I'd like to learn what that's like, have them shadow you. Like the doesn't have to be super complicated, right? If you're an IC champion your team members learn from your peers.
Gabby Hoyos: If your peer is like working on a special project, be like, Hey, I'd love to learn like what, what do you do differently than I do in the same, in the same job. Like how do you do it better? And then lastly, as you grow, and this is for companies that are 15,000 members or companies that are like five employees, is as you grow, as you scale, make sure that you create room for people to grow. Whether that means creating, if you have a custom remain customer, customer success representative, what, what is a customer representative level two look like? How can I promote that person there? You know what I'm saying? We don't have to create another, another company to do that, right? It's just breaking down your business needs in relation to your people need.
Janine Ramirez: Great, great stuff. Gabby and Gregory thinks so too. So yes, Gregory, we're gonna send you the, the video after this. We have about seven minutes left and we still have like a few questions for you cuz go. A lot of things are happening in, in the workforce and it all like boils down to trust, you know, as you said, great topic, but there was like a, a survey recently in a study that said that 87% of employees report that they feel like they're productive at work, but only 12% of leaders are confident that their team is productive. And this is happening especially in like hybrid and, and remote organizations. So how can organizations like mend that disconnect with perception of employee and and leader or manager?
Gabby Hoyos: I think I would say get data because if you are, if if you're hearing from one side we're we're amazing, like we're doing phenomenal. And then you hear from the other side, I don't, we're not getting that on our end. The thing that you're gonna need is data. And I mean that could be like, I know companies that do like internal employee survey or candidate experience surveys. So like, I think gathering some sort of data, asking specific questions like how do you, like, do you have enough to work on or do you like what you do? And, and having both leadership and employees take it, right? And addressing line by line, asking the same questions and maybe addressing like having people have like open-ended comments of like, yeah, I, I feel really productive on Wednesdays and Fridays, but Thursdays we have back to back to back meetings and I don't have enough time to, to do my job. So, but, but leadership isn't gonna know that, you know, it, it's like, I
Janine Ramirez: Would say yeah, you have to communicate that, you have to get feedback, I mean I'm gonna plug Erudit right there. Like, it's one of the reasons why I work where I work, but we see our own data and we have like our engagement levels and sometimes like marketing, we're like marketing, like we have the best engagement levels. Like, okay, the data says that we're actually like really involved and committed to our work. So Absolutely right. I didn't even think of that. Like, sorry, sorry I had to plug it. I know I, I'm passionate about the, the technology, but speaking of like Erudit, we're a hundred percent remote workforce and I find that like comparing to my previous jobs where it's in office, there's like this natural organic chemistry that you get, you know, talking to people in the pantry and, and when it's remote that's just gone, you know, it's just screen time the whole time. So what are like some tips for remote organizations to help build that big trust organically?
Gabby Hoyos: Mm, okay. I think, so three things. Number one, a very simple one. If, I think a lot of companies right now use Slack for everything. Yeah, right? Slack, I mean it's the best thing in the world. Slack has this feature called Donut and like it basically Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's one simple thing. Like, and there are, there are companies that actually like, they'll, like managers will check if you did a donut that week, like it's like, okay, not, not to like, you know, micromanage, but it's to encourage you, like make time out of your week to meet somebody.
Gabby Hoyos: If you don't make time this week, you won't make time the next week and then the next week it gets busier and busier. Right? That's one thing. Another thing that I can think of is like offsites, if you're fully remote, like make time for that and if not, like if I, I knew a team that they had like a group in New York or they had a group in Boston or they had a group in England and so they couldn't afford to fly everybody at the same time, but they did these micro like teams, like if you're already there, just have them there for like two days, let's like get to know each other. And then virtually, I would say like include like coffee chats as part of like people's experience at your company or on your team. It, this doesn't have to even be company-wide. It can be something that you've said. Like I had a manager who would require me and my team of five to have coffee chats every Friday just about our lives. Nothing about work. Nice and rotate. Yeah. And this working company-wide, it was just within my team, but it made our team so strong. Like we trusted each other's work because we trusted each other.
Janine Ramirez: Right? It's like, it's a person, it's not just their tasks and their performance. Great. We only have three minutes, so I wanted to give you the floor and you know, if there's any last words you wanna say or parting words you wanna say or thanks to the audience.
Gabby Hoyos: Well, thank you everybody. This is, I'm, I'm so excited. One of my dreams has been to become a better presenter, so this is me practicing that. So thank you guys for giving me the platform and joining. I think if there's any last words I would say, I understand it's a tough time. I don't like underestimate that it is a really hard time for different companies, the economy in the United States, outside of the United States, around the world. But I think the best thing that we can do is to be kind to one another. And if, don't assume, if you assume, just ask. You'll have more information if you ask. But yeah, that's all I would say.
Janine Ramirez: Yay. Thank you. Thank you so much Gabby. Honesty, I have like loads of more questions and maybe we should have like a, a coffee date to get all the information out there, but thank you for, for being with us today. Thank you for being our HR rockstar for today's Shockwave Talks. And I also wanted to thank everyone that's here, the audience for being here. Please like, if you found these insights helpful, please share the video with your colleagues as well. It was such a good, healthy and happy discussion about trust. A special shout out to Anna who's behind the scenes working backstage so that the webinar is a success. Thank you. And yes, if you enjoyed this Shockwave Talks, please do follow us on LinkedIn or subscribe to our knowledge hub on our website www.erudit.ai so we can update you about our next live event and so we can continue learning together and building happy healthy teams together. Also, if you're interested in seeing our, our special HR tool, our survey free people analytics tool, we're going to have a live group demo on October 27 on Thursday, so please do sign up for that if you're interested in link that and learning about our technology. Okey dokey, that's it. Again, my name is Janine and on behalf of Dyke, thank you. Thank you Gabby, and thank you everyone for joining Shockwave Talk. Have a great day.